
Traveller-digest      Friday, October 22 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 1246



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Official Request: Palm Traveller
RE: TML Members as resources
Space News
Standard forms for XML data
RE: Space Opera? 
Re: Subject: Aging (was Re : cloning mammoths)
Re: Space Opera?
RE: TML Members as resources
Re: Cardboard Heroes
RE: Standard forms for XML data
Honoring J. Andrew Keith
re: Type B/C atmospheres
RE: WTF- "vingean singularity"
Re: Fnord, et al.... 
Re: WTF- "vingean singularity" (was Re: Re Traveller and the modern era
The Travelling Palm
re: A few starships fot GT
Re: WTF- "vingean singularity"
RE: TML Members as resources
re: A few starships fot GT
Re: Space Opera?
Re: TML Members as resources
Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith
Re: TML Members as resources

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:29:28 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Official Request: Palm Traveller

At 07:51 AM 10/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>     What would others on the TML here find useful on such a device? (i.e.
>what type of apps are others looking for?)
Dunno if you are familiar with GT, but any support programs for that, and 
for GURPS in general would be greatly appreciated....

How about a good time-tracking program?  One that lets you set the year and 
date, and track dates, but could also zoom in to trck hours and even 
minutes, if needed.  This could be linked to a sector map program so that 
you could say "on 015-1120 we left, via Jump 4, from Regina to 
Entrope".  It would then calculate the time to do so, allowing you to 
insert delays during intermittent stops.



           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                          			     -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:30:40 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: TML Members as resources

At 01:04 PM 10/22/99 +0100, you wrote:

>Juliean Galak wrote:
> > Juliean Galak - Computer 4, Rifle 1, Pistol 1, Fencing(?) 1, Law 1
>
>Okay.  Here goes:
>
>Peter Trevor - Computer 4
>                Admin (Merchant Banking) 2
>                Electronics 1
>                Pistol 1
>                Ground Vehicle (Wheeled) 0

Hmm... pretty much everyone has Ground Vehicle 0, don't they...  I guess I 
should add that as well as Propeller Airplane 0....

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                          			     -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/plan.htm
WWW Page: http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/                

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:32:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Conley <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Space News

The second mission, to be launched in 2004, is the Full-sky Astrometric
Mapping Explorer, a space telescope designed to obtain highly precise
position and brightness measurements of 40 million stars. This database
will help astronomers accurately determine the distance to all the stars
on this side of the Milky Way galaxy, detect large planets and planetary
systems around stars within 1,000 light years of the Sun, and measure the
amount of dark matter in the galaxy from its influence on stellar motions. 

http://www.msnbc.com/news/284079.asp

- ----
Maybe we will find the Vilani with this survey

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:25:58 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Standard forms for XML data

The character XML is coming along strong and nearing completion. Both Mark
Ayers and Alex Ingram wrote that they have built standard forms for
Traveller characters and I am about ready for forms to use with the XML so
we can display the data easily and ready for printing. If either of you are
still interested - or anyone else that would like to help - please drop me a
line and I'll send you a copy of the DTD and the example XML document to
start work on (if you need it).

Remember, the forms will need to HTML based so that we can display them on a
Web browser - and some poor soul will need to be able to write the XLS
layout control to convert the data into the form. Obviously, that means we
can use several forms on the same data if we want to - maybe a character
sheet for players and GMs, Imperial or Megacorporation character ID cards,
mercenary contracts or whatever. They will all work with the same data quite
easily with the appropriate XLS definition. I've never written XLS before,
but if no-one else can help I'm willing to learn once the forms are ready.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:16:42 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Space Opera? 

I have to agree that Traveller is pure Space Opera - but I'd love to know
what MM says about the original sources for the idea. My bet would have very
little to do with the Lensmen series at all. I'd back two main sources for
just about all of the ideas in the game.

Top of the list - E.C. Tubb's Dumarest Saga. It has virtually all the
elements of the game in the stories as it is. High, Middle and Low passages,
primitive and high tech weapons, worlds with widely varying tech levels and
different government styles, aristocratic rulers, mysterious organisations
(the Cyclan) relying on powers of the mind, hidden and lost worlds, the
heresy that all humans came from one planet (the Solomani Heresy). And, of
course, the central characters in the stories are named as - you guessed
it - Travellers.

Next on the list would be Jack Vance's many stories, though perhaps not the
Demon Princes. They seem to fill in all the remaining gaps - interstellar
empires, vast disorganised government between the stars with local
organisations on the planet surface.

Anyone care to suggest any others? Better yet, anyone who really knows the
answer like to tell us?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Aging (was Re : cloning mammoths)

John R. Snead writes:
> 
> Actually, I've heard that while Dolly has shorter telomere molecules, but
> that there has so far been no evidence that she or any other clones are
> aging more rapidly.  Not knowing much about sheep, I've no idea when such
> proof would likely show up.  I'd imagine we'd know in 5 years or so.  So,
> can anyone confirm of deny the veracity of what I've heard? 

From what I've heard, sheep have no notable external signs of aging which would show up on a clone (such things as teeth wear aren't going to be affected), so yes, several years before anyone knows.  Of course, also evidence that Dolly isn't a perfect clone anyway, if nothing else there's different mitochrondrial DNA.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:51:39 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Space Opera?

Mark Preston wrote:
> 
> I have to agree that Traveller is pure Space Opera - but I'd love to know
> what MM says about the original sources for the idea. My bet would have very
> little to do with the Lensmen series at all. I'd back two main sources for
> just about all of the ideas in the game.

IIRC, somebody on this list posted, many years ago, that Marc and Loren thought
of Traveller after seeing Star Wars for the first time.

I've always thought that was cool, since I knew I wanted to find and play a
sci-fi RPG after seeing The Empire Strikes Back (I didn't know what RPGs were
when Star Wars was in theatres).

My memory might be off though -- feel free to correct me if you know better.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: TML Members as resources

On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Juliean Galak wrote:

> At 01:04 PM 10/22/99 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Juliean Galak wrote:
> > > Juliean Galak - Computer 4, Rifle 1, Pistol 1, Fencing(?) 1, Law 1
> >
> Hmm... pretty much everyone has Ground Vehicle 0, don't they...  I guess I 
> should add that as well as Propeller Airplane 0....
> 
I don't have it.  =)  I'm trying to figure out what my skills would be and
whether or not they'd be useful in any TU.  I have a Master's Degree in
Medieval History specializing in the occult, early science, mysticism,
religion and women's issues.  I was once disallowed as a Cthulhu Now
character (too powerful!) but I think all I have in terms of Traveller is
Computer-1, Firearms-0, Streetwise-1, Seduction, stuff like that...

Kiri

******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com

"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:55:59 -0400
From: "Micheal D. Peters" <Travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes

Guilty,

I have a couple of sets Merc01 and 02 and a set of power armor cardboard
hero types on my site. go to..

http://members.home.net/travelleri/index.html

and click to the parper armies section. They're in PDF format so you'll need
Acrobat reader to print them. I use a good card stock through an HP deskjet
and they work well for large groups of NPCs. Oh, they are in 25 mm format.

Mike

(Who has left his web page go entirely too long!)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes


> At 01:33 AM 10/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >[2] There is a site out there (can't remember whose) that has one set of
> >military figures on it as a picture file, set up in the same format as
the
> >"Cardboard Heroes". The idea is to print them onto cardboard. If no-one
> >else can remember where these are, I'll try to locate them over the
> >weekend.
>
> Another place to check out is Microtactix and their cardstock buildings.
> They have been putting out fantasy buildings (Vyllage-on-the-Cheep), but
> have recently released Starbase Omega 3, a sci-fi set.  They are in 25mm
> scale, and have some figures exactly in the same format as
> Cardboard Heroes.  Here is the URL for the sci-fi set:
> http://Microtactix.com/sbo3.htm
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
>
> Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com
> Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com
> Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com
>
>  IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+
> _________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:16:43 -0700
From: Mark Ayers <Mark.Ayers@PREMERA.com>
Subject: RE: Standard forms for XML data

I was working on an XML schema but held back since that technology is still
too young. I'll take a look at the DTD and XML and give you what feedback my
schedule allows.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:40:22 -0400
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Honoring J. Andrew Keith

Someone recently suggested that a capital ship be named after Mr.
Keith.

Looking over the recently-posted list of Keith-authored items, I
was struck by how few seemed to be overtly military, and how many
seemed to be Scout-type stuff. It occurs to me that perhaps a
more appropriate honor would be to have a class of scout ships -
perhaps an 'upgraded' successor to the Donosev class survey ship
- - named after him instead.  Certainly, Andy was more of a pioneer
than a warrior in the realm of Traveller.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:49:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: re: Type B/C atmospheres

>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>Oh yeah, it occurs to me that planets that are sufficiently
>radioactive as to require protective gear would also be a likely to be
>lumped under "insidious".
>>>>>>>>>>
>Since "insidious" is defined in the rules as defeating protective suits
>in a relatively short period of time, would a sufficiently high-temperature
>planet qualify as an insidious atmosphere?

Yup. This is one of the items used as insidious in WBH.

Another good option is a flourine atmosphere. You get things like
hydrofloric acid rain, which does nasty stuff to plastics (like seals).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:05:37 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: WTF- "vingean singularity"

John Snead writes:
<snipped>
>We might have genetically engineers supergeniuses, humans
>with massive mental cyberware, or hyperintelligent AI
>computers. 
>
>If any such beings end up existing then suddenly the future
>becomes completely unpredicatable, since such individuals
>will understand the world in a fashion which we cannot grasp.
<snipped>

	I concur.  We would have as much trouble understanding
	such a society as chimps would have understanding ours.

>Given that in the last few years geneticists have identified a
>gene sequence for memory that can be used to allow mice to
>learn faster,

	Although it is not PC to say so, it is pretty obvious
	that at least some aspects of intelligence (leaving aside
	for the moment the definition of intelligence) are 
	influenced by genes.  Manipulation of "genetic IQ" will
	probably be a lot more complex than playing with things
	like physical fitness, appearance, etc.  Note that in
	humans (as in other organisms), intelligence (like 
	other traits) is molded by genes, environment, and the
	interaction of the two.  Also, I am NOT a eugenics
	proponant.

>and medical electronics folks have made a (*really* primitive*)
>direct neural interface (move a cursor?by thought) I'm betting
>on intelligence enhanced humans within the next 40 or 50 years.
>I hope the process can be retrofitted, since I'd sure like to
>become such a being.

	I could be interesting, but it might be frightening too.
	What if you find out that morality is silly?  I'm not
	saying that such a conclusion would be a necessary
	result of higher intelligence, but (as you pointed out)
	we cannot imagine how brainiacs would see the world.

>Actual non-biological AI seems more difficult, but I'm not
>willing to be what computers will be like in 50 years, given
>that there were no computers 50 years ago. 

	There is also the issue of different directions for
	intellectual development.  There may be mutually
	exclusive approaches to high Int, and machine Int might
	be different in many ways than (current) human Int (to
	say nothing of non-human sophonts).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:27:21 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fnord, et al.... 

In a message dated 10/21/99 11:05:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jamstar@accesstoledo.com writes:

<< 
 (Anybody *else* miss that show??)
  >>
The adult version? I do....Elvira or Elmira  reminds me of my boss
BobS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 18:49:25 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: WTF- "vingean singularity" (was Re: Re Traveller and the modern era

>If any such beings end up existing then suddenly the future becomes
>completely unpredictable, since such individuals will understand the
>world in a fashion which we cannot grasp.  What would a being that was
>more intelligent than the smartest human and capable of thinking 100 times
>as fast be able to do?  What would a society run be such beings or perhaps
>composes of such beings be like?  We have no clue...  That's what the
>singularity is about.  Vinge has an excellent essay about this on the web.

What you are forgetting is the most inherent and naturally limiting factor :
Humans themselves.  The main distribution of people aren't very intelligent
at all yet occupy most of the niches needed to push technologies to change
humanity.  and these same people will fight change and do fight it.  The
larger the changes, the more they fight it.  Why else is NASA and other
needed agencies relegated a level of importance equal to watching cars go
down the freeway, as far as Senators and other influential people are
concerned, when it comes to divvying out the funds?

You then tell these people that this or that is going to change their
children or themselves physically and you'll have a near panic on your hands
and the typical political knee-jerk reaction of covering it up and brushing
it under the carpet.  Were it not for short-sighted people in power, we
would already have an international space station, a colony on the moon,
industry in orbit and possibly a colony on Mars as well.  Sure technology is
moving fast, but that's mainly research.  Implementation (unless it stands
to make someone very rich or powerful) seems to drag slow as molasses in
January.


___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:03:12 -0400
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: The Travelling Palm

I'd _kill_ for a Palm version of GALACTIC - even if there's no
way in hell I could keep the entire map in my PalmPro...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:53:10 PDT
From: "Brandon Cope" <copeab@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: A few starships fot GT

>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>
> >Patrol Cruiser, TL12 <snip>
> >36.5 cargo
> >Statistics: EMass 876.4, LMass 1242, Cost MCr 132.513
> >Performance: Accel 4.03 Gs, Jump 3, Air Speed 3873
> >Note: Without ship's boat and with no cargo load, Accel 5.6 Gs.
>
>I got:
>
>38.5 Cargo
>
>Emass 978.3 (858 no fuel), LMass 1236.6, Cost MCr 117.412
>Accel 4.04 Gs (5.11 Gs empty, 5.83 Gs No J fuel), Jump 3, Air Speed 3647 
>mph

The cruiser should have 4 fuel processors, not 2; this accounts for the two 
"missing" spaces.

Also, the cruiser can take 26 "average" hits from a TL 12 laser before being 
reduced to 0 HP.

A generous and sadistic GM,

Brandon Cope

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 12:39:21 +1300
From: "Frank Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: WTF- "vingean singularity"

> I concur.  We would have as much trouble understanding
> such a society as chimps would have understanding ours.

The danger is that without understanding, we would judge, and in judging,
would condemn.

Too much belief in absolutes and ideals, not enough flexibility.

> Although it is not PC to say so, it is pretty obvious
> that at least some aspects of intelligence (leaving aside
> for the moment the definition of intelligence) are
> influenced by genes.

As intelligence in all species is influenced _directly_ by information
processing power, and that this is directly influenced im turn by the amount
of visual and audio signal proceesing a species of brain does, _capability_
for intelligence is almost completely determined by DNA.

What people forget is that the "environment" part excercises the processing
equipment that is in place and builds the neural net. It does not directly
affect the capability for intelligence of the person, it merely gives them
more experiences, making them better able to function in human society and
_seem_ more intelligent that a superior processing unit deprived of
information or communiction skills.

An analogy is that two identical CPU's could be used in two machines, one
might control a refrigerator's temperature, the other is designed and
programed to interact with humans using language and visual signs, helping
them do some task.

Anyone interacting with the second CPU without being told it's the same as
the first, would conclude the second was more "intelligent"..

"Genetically", i.e hardware-wise , it isn't.

>Manipulation of "genetic IQ" will
> probably be a lot more complex than playing with things
> like physical fitness, appearance, etc.

It may not be. the basic requitrements are as simple as a physical trait,
size of particular sections of the brain, average level of a particular
neuro-chemical in the inter-nueron gap,  that sort of thing

Though figuring out which combinatuions are best, may be difficult if the
best combination is one that no individual has yet exhibited.

> Note that in
> humans (as in other organisms), intelligence (like
> other traits) is molded by genes, environment, and the
> interaction of the two.  Also, I am NOT a eugenics
> proponant.

Why not ? _Iff_ we had sufficient understanding of the sequencing, it would
be illogical not to make use of that information to better yourself and the
species, would it not ?

Of course, one would, if one wanted to be a "nice" person,  have to allow
individuals to choose whether they wantd to be involved in the process, and
allow them to hide out in their little backwater,

But for some reason, that seems more religious or hysterical than anything
else,  lots of people don't like the idea of genetic engineering, look at
all the fuss in the UK where they've even banned (or tried to ban, more
like) genetically modified foods, forgeting that all the food they've been
eating for centuries is already genetically modified. There's even people
trying to get that done over here in New Zealand.

> >and medical electronics folks have made a (*really* primitive*)
> >direct neural interface (move a cursor?by thought)

Yes, this was demonstrated, though not so much by "thought" as by
concentrating on producing a particular sort of brain activity.

> >I'm betting
> >on intelligence enhanced humans within the next 40 or 50 years.
> >I hope the process can be retrofitted, since I'd sure like to
> >become such a being.
>
> I could be interesting, but it might be frightening too.
> What if you find out that morality is silly?  I'm not
> saying that such a conclusion would be a necessary
> result of higher intelligence, but (as you pointed out)
> we cannot imagine how brainiacs would see the world.

Hey, we don't need brainiac to see that morality _is_ silly
unless you're the one controlling what the current morality is.
<grin>

The problem is not really that "higher intelligences" may see the world in a
different way, but that humans have this terrible desire to enforce their
own way of seeing things on other people and things, and not accepting
other's ways of seeing things.

The only way we can handle the future is by begining to practice seeing
things in different ways, and to realize that we _need_ to see things in
diferent ways at different times and in different situations.

RPG's help with that,.

 > >Actual non-biological AI seems more difficult, but I'm not
> >willing to be what computers will be like in 50 years, given
> >that there were no computers 50 years ago.
>
> There is also the issue of different directions for
> intellectual development.  There may be mutually
> exclusive approaches to high Int, and machine Int might
> be different in many ways than (current) human Int (to
> say nothing of non-human sophonts).

A few thoughts

This is true, people who don't like computer intellligence keep redefining
what intelligence is to deny computer capabilities. Their latest, and
probably most interesting, attempt at redefining it, is "emotional"
intelligence.

Currently, computers can out perform humans in all quantative measures of
human intelligence, except perhaps inductive reasoning and some random
information retrrieval but they don't exhibit "original thought".

One possibility is that original thought may not actually be neccessary for
us to be fooled into thinking something is "intelligent". The converse is
that anything we can't communicate with is considered "un-intelligent"
unless it shows us some fancy technological tricks.

People who can't communicate well are considered un-intelligent, the
foreigner who can't speak English is derided as stupid, etc.

Intelligence is, like beauty, in the mind of the beholder.

Frankie
Shockwave Rider

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:39:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: TML Members as resources

Douglas Berry  764C85  Cr=few

Rifle-3, Tactics-3, Wheeled Vehicle-3, Heavy Weapons-1
- --

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:54:57 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re: A few starships fot GT

>In GT 2/e, the cost of manuever modules has more than doubled at TL12
>(MCr 0.65/module, I think).

Wow, I knew it was incorrect from GV2 numbers, but I didn't expect them to
correct this as it means they have to change all GTL12 ships. It makes nice
colour of course, giving a stronger reason for merchant ships to be GTL10 and
combat ships GTL12.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:09:56 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Space Opera?

On Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:16:13 -0400, Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Personally, my definition of Space Opera has always been the need for 
>fighters to bank in space :)  Thus, Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica are 
>space opera.  Star Trek, in all it's incarnations, doesn't have fighters, 
>hence it's not space opera.  B5's fighters don't bank in space, so it's not 
>space opera either.

Wrong!

TOS didn't have fighters, true (unless you count Starfleet Battles).
Neither did TNG, except for a brief glimpse of a squadron of small ships
wiped out by a Borg cube.

Later DS9 episodes and VOYAGER, however, have repeatedly shown craft of
fighter size and purpose (first the Maquis ships, then others).  And boy,
do they bank.  So do the bigger ships, if you look closely.  I could
provide episode cites, but that would require me to watch VOYAGER,
something I find almost physically painful most of the time.

STAR TREK is definitely space opera.  B5, however, is a trickier subject.
I'll leave that to someone else.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair   "The Jigglypuff's trilling seems to have a 
kellys@efn.org    tranquilizing effect on the human nervous system.
                  Fortunately, I am... immune..."
                            -- Mr. Spock, THE TROUBLE WITH POKEMON

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:33:06 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML Members as resources

In a message dated 10/22/99 8:56:32 PM !!!First Boot!!!, tiamat@tsoft.com 
writes:

<<  have a Master's Degree in
 Medieval History specializing in the occult, early science, mysticism,
 religion and women's issues.  >>

and History 3 or 4...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:38:34 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Honoring J. Andrew Keith

In a message dated 10/22/99 9:27:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, 
jzeitlin@cyburban.com writes:

<< Someone recently suggested that a capital ship be named after Mr.
 Keith.
 
 Looking over the recently-posted list of Keith-authored items, I
 was struck by how few seemed to be overtly military, and how many
 seemed to be Scout-type stuff. It occurs to me that perhaps a
 more appropriate honor would be to have a class of scout ships -
 perhaps an 'upgraded' successor to the Donosev class survey ship
 - named after him instead.  Certainly, Andy was more of a pioneer
 than a warrior in the realm of Traveller. >>

I suggested it, and come to think about it you're right. I will change the 
request to an IISS capital ship like the transferred Kokkiruk class 
dreadnought, or maybe we can change the number of AHL's transferred to the 
scouts by one...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:49:29 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML Members as resources

 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1246
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